Published by Linda on 24 Jul 2008 at 09:42 pm
What Girls Do
I was very interested in this story from NPR about girls achieving math parity with boys as far as test scores throughout high school. I have generally been dismayed by the roasting of Lawrence Summers for just leaving open the possibility of gender differences in academic areas of strength, and I think this response is much, much more helpful. You don’t have to kick the guy in the head for acknowledging that as one possible explanation; you have to do more research and find out whether that’s the reason or not.
But I’m also fascinated by this story because, for about seven years, I coached a high-school mock trial team made up entirely of girls. Girls don’t have the same reputation for lagging behind in debate skills that they do in math, but I do believe that they face powerful gender issues that I discussed with them quite often.
(If you don’t know how mock trial works, basically a team of students rehearses for a period of months, learning the facts and developing a presentation of a particular case (everybody on all teams works on the same case for the whole season) in which team members will eventually act as the “attorneys” and also the “witnesses” for one side or the other of the case. They then compete against other schools — everybody learns both sides of the case, because you wind up competing in multiple “rounds” in a tournament, and sometimes you’re on one side, and sometimes you’re on the other. For the attorneys, it’s a lot like debate; for the witnesses, it’s basically acting. It’s hard to explain if you’ve never seen it, but it relies most heavily on your ability to think on your feet and, in the case of attorneys, to know the case backwards and forwards and be extensively prepared to make objections, respond to objections, and so forth. Minnesota has a very strong state high school program, and the school where I coached had a very strong program with a very good reputation.)
Rounds are generally judged by local lawyers, and occasionally by local judges if you’re lucky. I cannot tell you how many times I saw competition judges — easily half of whom were women themselves — react with obvious distaste and dismay to strong, authoritative performances by girls. I’m not talking about being rude or snotty or overly aggressive or pushy; the philosophy of the school’s program was always very much against that, both because it sucks and because you don’t usually get anywhere. I’m talking about simply getting up and speaking persuasively in favor of your position. I actually listened to a judge, during a post-competition critique, accuse a seventeen-year-old girl of being “snippy” simply because she questioned witnesses with an authority and confidence that would be absolutely unremarkable in a boy her age. The girls’ team shirts that year said “Smart Not Snippy.”
(Oh, and the ones the first year I coached say — I still have mine — “Hard Work. Fair Play. World Domination.” Oh, I loooooooved that team. One of them’s currently taking the bar exam.) (You know the scene in Parenthood, where Steve Martin’s kid manages to catch the fly ball, and Steve Martin goes into this ridiculous dance around the field, where he’s waggling and rolling on the ground with his feet in the air, and he kind of knows he’s being ridiculous and overinvested but he can’t help indulging his moment of triumph? I had that moment with that team.)
Anyhoo, high-school teachers who work with a lot of girls will tell you that they disproportionately have the “I don’t know if this is right” syndrome. You ask them a question, and before they offer their answer, they say, “I don’t know if this is right, but…” Going from there to fiercely protecting a witness from objectionable questions from an opposing lawyer is really a tough shift.
My mom used to do a little experiment in her classes to demonstrate (or, really, to discover) girls’ tendency not to raise their hands in class. She would, without saying anything to the class, start calling on boys and girls, alternating between the two. Boy, girl. Boy, girl. Absolutely even. And every time she did it, it would take a very short time before somebody said, “How come all you’re doing is calling on girls?” Just having girls speaking half the time felt to the class like it was nothing but girls being called on.
I’m absolutely certain that boys disproportionately have other issues in school, and I don’t know that one is easier and one is harder. But seven years teaching girls to stand up without apologizing, interrupt people to make objections without apologizing, stand up straight, speak with authority, and generally feel comfortable as debaters convinced me once and for all that it’s very much worth being aware of all these issues. If you look at that research on math skills, it makes you realize that without teachers who are aware of the stereotypes that girls can face, and their tendency — for reasons apparently not related to aptitude — to stop taking hard math classes in high school, they’d get nowhere.
Hard Work. Fair Play. World Domination. And lots and lots and lots of math and the rules of evidence.
terracool on 24 Jul 2008 at 11:02 pm #
And it continues into adulthood for women.
Check this out in your workplace emails. Women have a tendency to start sentences with “I think” or “I feel” or “I believe”. As in “I think we should take everyone off Task A and put them all on Task B so we meet that deadline.” Or one of the other variations. Men are much more likely to say “We have to take everyone off Task A and put them on Task B to hit this deadline.” Or (female version) “I feel our best approach would be to .. ” versus (male version) “Our best play is to … ”
It’s so simple and so subtle, but so profound. I am hugely sensitive to it and am always self-editing for it, and I still regularly find my emails contain the I think/I feel/I believe trilogy. When I point out the tendency to other women, they are often surprised at how often they do the same thing without realizing it.
There may be some positives to the fact that women will preface their opinions with an acknowlegement that they are just opinions and not hard cold fact. But mostly I think that the habit is a remnant of the tendency for girls to not want to appear too pushy.
khb on 24 Jul 2008 at 11:15 pm #
The reason Summers’s attitude is so dangerous is that every discussion of the possibility that girls are just plain stupider at math than boys are actually reinforces the likelihood that girls will be stupider at math than boys are, or will come across that way. I think that people are inclined to think that because math (along with physics and engineering and all those other things that boys do and girls don’t) is an objective science, there must exist an objective measure of a person’s innate aptitude for it, and every aspect of the person’s performance in it must be based on that objective measure. But it’s not that way at all. The gender gap is not independent of our perception of it.
For one, there’s stereotype threat: If you’re a girl, and you believe that you’re less likely to solve a particular math problem because you’re a girl, then you are indeed less likely to solve the math problem. Solving math problems, especially really hard ones, requires a certain amount of confidence in yourself – when you have an idea about how to solve it, you need to be able to believe it’s probably right for long enough to follow it through to the end and see if it gives you an answer. If you’re saying “I don’t know if this is right” to yourself all the time, then you’re less likely to get there.
For another, there’s unconscious sexism: When teachers and professors and department heads and university presidents think that it’s a very real possibility that girls are just plain stupider than boys, they hold girls to higher standards of proving themselves. A good performance from a boy means he’s a genius, while a good performance from a girl might just be a fluke.
There has been plenty of research showing that stereotype threat and unconscious sexism are both real phenomena. If people want to do other research into whether there are inherent differences between the brains of men and women, that’s fine. If they find something interesting and want to talk about it, that’s fine too. But idly speculating to the whole world, without much at all in the way of evidence to back you up, that an inherent difference exists that just happens to coincide with a long-standing stereotype, and all the while patting yourself on the back for providing such a provocative and politically incorrect contribution to intellectual discourse? Not fine.
Linda on 24 Jul 2008 at 11:31 pm #
Okay. Well, I never saw any back-patting or anything of that sort, so if that happened, I can’t comment on that. All I saw was a guy saying, “we don’t really know if it’s x, y, or z,” where one of the possibilities was biological difference. I’m just not that upset about the possibility existing that there are differences in the brains of men and women. In fact, I’m pretty sure there are differences; it’s a question of what they are, and what the “so what” is. (For instance: Even if there were differences taken in the aggregate, it wouldn’t justify failing to support individual girls.) I’m certainly familiar with both stereotyping and unconscious sexism; failure to care about those things is not to blame for my discomfort with what I felt was a total overreaction to a single comment — a reaction that came, in many cases, from people who hadn’t heard the original comments anyway.
Bo on 25 Jul 2008 at 12:15 am #
As the girl with the hand madly waving for every question in class, I’m really glad those girls had you for mock trial. (Of course, I am still single, so maybe my mother was right that no one would ever love me if I insisted on being smarter than they were.)
And terracool’s right. That’s something I trained myself out of after reading about it many years ago. It sees me respected and regarded as an expert at work. Not surprisingly. But on a particular forum with which you may be familiar it got me a private message from someone who didn’t like my know-it-all attitude. I explained the think/believe issue and that I didn’t use those words when I knew what I was talking about (like hockey) and very seldom posted about things I didn’t really know about (like raising children or marriage).
Apparently, Linda, your parenthelalia is contagious!
SP on 25 Jul 2008 at 1:05 am #
I had a wonderful female teacher in high school who told me once that, when she made a conscious effort to call on girls 50 percent of the time, SHE felt like all she was doing was calling on girls. And she knew what she was doing!
I’m a lawyer — and a damn mouthy broad to boot — but I do the “I think” intro in some scenarios still. Not all the time, and I can be pushy (and always have been) if I think that someone needs to step into the lead or that the lead is screwing up. But I also spent way too much of law school not volunteering to answer questions on the sole grounds that if the answer were that easy, someone else would have offered it already. Often, it turns out I had the answer and no one else had offered it.
emmo on 25 Jul 2008 at 6:32 am #
As a nerdy chick myself (Math & Physics undergrad, PhD in Physics) I’m a bit sensitive about these issues. I have to hold myself back and try not to get too raging-feminist when people claim that women are inherently weaker in science and engineering for biological reasons. I suspect that the reason so few women in the US pursue PhDs in science and engineering fields is related to the perception that they will have to make the choice between career and family (a choice men don’t have to make, for biological reasons) and a lot of them aren’t quite ready to choose “career” at age 21.
Anyway, what I mostly wanted to say is that I think the “This is probably wrong…” intro can often be a learned behavior not necessarily related to lack of self-confidence. I found when I was at MIT that it was pretty much the only way to be heard when working in predominantly male groups. Say “Oh, cool. I figured out how to do the problem. It’s like this…” and the group will often continue working without even glancing up. Say “This is probably wrong, but what if we did the problem like this? Do you think that might work? You understand this stuff so much better than I do…” and you get their attention, they believe that they are still primarily responsible for solving the problem, and everyone gets to move on… That’s probably not the case everywhere, but I definitely found it to be true much of the time at nerd-school. In the end I found it was less work to just work together either with other women or with less pompous/chauvinistic men whenever possible.
I had a fellowship during grad school that involved spending a couple days a week teaching high school physics, and it was so depressing to watch these really bright girls start wearing more and more lip gloss while pretending to be less and less intelligent as the year went on. It’s not that boys don’t face pressure along those lines, too, (”schoolboy” was a popular taunt that drove a few very bright guys into the more remedial-level class) but I think the misperception that girls aren’t supposed to be good at math and science adds to the feeling among girls that they’re a freak if excel in those areas and that they should hide that aptitude if they want to fit in.
I think there are a lot of underlying reasons for the disparity in the numbers of men and women in higher-level math and science, and a lot of them are rooted in societal perceptions of women and prejudices that a lot of people don’t even realize they have (or don’t realize are “prejudices,” as opposed to “facts”).
jlc on 25 Jul 2008 at 7:36 am #
I love this post.
I still apologize way too much for myself, even though I know I shouldn’t, and I’m working on that (and I’m TERRIBLE at math though my mom and sister are better at it than either my brother or my father, who are both kind of artsy. Anecdotal evidence? Useless).
I know this isn’t really a dishy, “let’s share the details of our lives” blog, but I have an ex – and this guy is an attorney with degrees from a couple of Ivy League institutions – who, when I was in a vulnerable place for many reasons, told me to apologize for myself MORE and to consider my tone of voice when speaking to him and other men, so I didn’t come across as harsh, because that is no way to be. And man, did he get cranky when I beat him at poker. He would actually tell me that women should “show their curves” more and speak more softly, and he was constantly complaining about the women he worked with who were, in my opinion, badass. It was all about making him feel more manly and making sure he had what he wanted. Oh, and The Mystery Method? He loved that, it turned out, although he didn’t hear about it until after he and I got together. He watched that ridiculous show with Mystery on VH1 and praised it because “women have all the power in dating and it’s time we changed that.” Argh. Also, women aren’t funny, he said. I didn’t break up with him a moment too soon. So, the point of all of this is, there are a lot of men out there, men who call themselves liberals and who would be SHOCKED to be called sexist, who work with and for powerful women and think that absolves them on some level, and until the attitudes of people like them change, I worry about the effects on their girlfriends/wives/daughters. It’s sad how many men get away with telling women they’re less than equal, still. Different, sure.
It’s taken me into my adulthood to realize fully how awesome my dad is, to end on a more positive note. Every girl should have a dad like mine – he loved it that his son loved to play the piano, and that his daughter loved to climb trees and play touch football, but without ever pointing that out or making a Thing out of it. We’re both literate, so he’s happy.
golfnutbucket on 25 Jul 2008 at 9:52 am #
I have spent 37+ years in a field that is dominated by males — engineering. I like to think that over the years I have developed a tough skin to deflect the slings and arrows tossed my way when men discount my abilities. It is very, very difficult to go through these rites of passage to prove yourself over and over and over again — having to do things better and faster to prove you belong. I would say that in the past 10 years, things have gotten better for women engineers, at least in some quarters. My industry, which is telecommunications, has enough women in engineering roles now that gender bias is rare — or at least, rarer. That is a really good thing. As I approach the denouement of my career, I no longer have to prove anything to anybody and I have the respect of my peers and those above me in the ranks. It was a long, hard road to get here and I hope no little girl has to go through what I did to prove that she belongs — anywhere.
Kate on 25 Jul 2008 at 10:48 am #
My bad habit is not the “I think/feel/believe” issue but my use of the word “just” in emails. It’s the same kind of disclaimer and I used to use it in email communication with abandon. The I realized how weak it made me look, “just thought you should be aware…” “just thought this might be important…” “just thought you might like to know…” they all reduce the impact of the statement following.
I was very lucky, I grew up in a household of feminists and accomplished women (my grandmother was a college graduate and author, as was her mother) and men who supported that and in some ways it’s actually hurt me. When I am confronted by sexism it shocks me and I’m not sure how to handle it.
Which is how I started using “I just…” in email communcations. Men were more responsive when I was younger.
Anyway, I think the problem with Summers statement is not that there might not be a biological imperitive that men tend to be better at Math then women. I think there is a great deal of evidence to suggest that our brains work differently:
http://www.livescience.com/health/050120_brain_sex.html
but, regardless, just because the brain works differently does not mean that the women who are drawn to subject that are traditionally male dominated aren’t great at them or shouldn’t be given every opportunity to excel in those fields. The problem with an educator making a statement about the reason women might not excel in math could be biological is that then it gives those in power (mostly men) a reason to discount female students and any interest or success they have in those subjects.
On a purely anicdotal basis I have a friend who this happened to. She graduated valdictorian from her all women’s college with a 3.9 GPA in Physics, went to Harvard for her Ph.D. and then encountered what she felt was raging sexism. Her theories were discounted and her opinions were dismissed, to the point that although she had done some exceptional original research, the fact that her outcome was not what she thought it was going to be meant that they were not going to grant her the Ph.D. with her colleagues, most of them male (BTW — that is very unusual in the sciences. I mean it’s good to have the right answer, but even a wrong answer teaches you things). She got so fed-up with the politics that she quit, got a full scholarship to a top 5 law school, became editor of the Law Review there and is now a successful patent attorney. She honestly feels that, had she not been a woman she would have been granted the Ph.D. and become a physics professor.
Nicole on 25 Jul 2008 at 11:10 am #
Oh man, I loved this post because it brought back my days on the high school speech team–I was president, mind you. And I competed in the male-dominated categories of extemporaneous speaking (basically you get 30 minutes to prepare a speech on a current event) and mock Congress. I was pretty good at it, and I’m going to be honest and say that one of my favorite aspects of the whole thing was entering a room full of suits-in-training who barely even noticed my presence, and then kicking their a**es. And for whatever reason (maybe because the setup is not confrontational, unlike a mock trial?) I didn’t get the snippy comments, I got the, “Wow, she’s kind of impressive, didn’t expect that” comments.
And now I’m in grad school (for English) and preface pretty much everything I say with “I’m not sure if this is what you’re looking for, but…”
D’oh.
meg on 25 Jul 2008 at 11:57 am #
I remember thinking that the boys were “boring” smart because they were building electric cars or whatever while I was asking good questions and writing killer essays. Killer for high school anyway. I never experienced the feeling of not wanting to own my skills, although now that I think of it, I did stop taking math and science classes later in high school, not because I wasn’t getting good marks in the ones I was taking, but because english/social sciencey classes were less work and more interesting. I appreciated the lack of one right answer. Although now, looking back, I often think that I missed out by not continuing in math, specifically, because I really enjoyed the process of answering a complicated problem.
I felt this kind of thing way more in university level debating, where the boys would be ushered into the boy’s club of it all and the girls would basically be left to their own devices to get their shit together. There were girls that were great, for sure, but mostly only at the highest levels. It was like as a girl debator, you had to earn a place at the boys’ table. If you weren’t super talented, you’d better be cute and laugh at the long-winded stories the older guys would tell. It was kind of a microcosm of life.
Katie on 25 Jul 2008 at 12:39 pm #
I never understood why women feel like they have to stop saying “I think/I feel/believe” and start saying “I will/I am.” I know I use both sets of phrasing, but, curiously enough, being on TWOP showed me the power of the previous set as opposed to the latter set.
If you say something without nuance or without considering all the possible alternate explanations or objections to your own point (for example: making some blanket statement that crazy old ladies can’t make it to the Survivor finals, without, you know, mentioning LILL), you will be eaten alive by people quite skilled in poking holes in your blanket statements. I learned from TWOP forums, among other places, that it’s a lot smarter, when making your argument, to allow for your own possible incorrectness.
Moreover, in my personal life, I feel like when I preface a statement with “If I’m not mistaken. . .” the people I’m arguing with know damn well that I don’t think I’m mistaken at all. It’s just sarcasm, usually. Now that might make me kind of obnoxious sometimes, but I don’t think it makes me “less empowered” than a man or even “more polite” than a man.
Mertseger on 26 Jul 2008 at 8:42 pm #
Why suspect unconscious sexism in Math while there still exists blatant sexism in Math? I completed my Ph.D. in Operations Research (a branch of applied math) from Stanford in 1990. My class was almost exactly 50/50, but there were several instances of blatant harassment while we were there. The department chair had separated from his wife, hooked up with a grad student in the department and became her thesis adviser. In the search for her thesis adviser, a different female Ph.D. candidate in my department was told by one of our professors, “You’re a regular Chatty Kathy Doll, aren’t you.” And, lastly but most egregiously, there was a third different prof who would sit next to woman in the master’s programs during the weekly colloquia and rest his hand on their thighs. We eventually got Bell Labs to sue Stanford which resulted in his being made emeritus (no irony there at all, is there?) and out of day to day contact with students.
As one of the guys who helped bring this latter monster down, I like to think that my generation is better (but, of courser, I’m biased). Nevertheless, I’m glad that the big granting agencies have started quietly doing Title IX reviews of academic departments. Hopefully, there will be findings and action in the kind of cases my colleagues endured.
As for any innate differences in math ability, I’ve never seen it or believed it. The arguments that any test difference arose from differences in socialization have always made sense to me.
Kristin on 27 Jul 2008 at 12:26 am #
Summers did NOT simply put forth a hypothesis and leave open the possibility of gender differences – here is a highly-snipped but very accurate quotation:
“One is what I would call the … high-powered job hypothesis….The second is what I would call different availability of aptitude at the high end …The third is what I would call different socialization and patterns of discrimination in a search.
…
And in my own view, their importance probably ranks in exactly the order that I just described. ”
It is the last sentence, I think, that got him into hot water, and rightfully so. There is no scientific consensus for this ranking (or any other permutation of rankings of these reasons) at this point in time. To basically endorse the idea that really, women don’t want high-powered jobs, that they’re not quite as good as men, and maybe, as a very last factor, there are some social factors, is not a question of academic freedom. It is a question of academic RESPONSIBILITY, and he failed miserably.
Linda on 27 Jul 2008 at 8:34 am #
In fairness, the second theory really isn’t “men are better than women.” The second theory is that men have greater deviation in ability at both the high AND the low end of the scale. There’s absolutely no claim in that hypothesis that men are “better” on average than women are at math and science. The question is whether they deviate more from the mean in both directions, which really isn’t saying “better.” I don’t think that’s a fair description of what that hypothesis is at all. And really, average test scores don’t demonstrate whether that’s true or not.
I still believe if you read the remarks in full (here: http://www.president.harvard.edu/speeches/2005/nber.html), he’s so repeatedly clear about the fact that these are his observations based on the research he’s seen — he never, ever claims that there’s scientific consensus on the ranking — that it still qualifies as his opinion as one person who has reviewed a fair amount of research. And incidentally, “maybe, as a last factor, there are some social factors” is a misrepresentation of his description of that aspect as well. He does not say “maybe,” he says there is definitely discrimination and bias, and he says you see it in any academic setting, and he says you have to go after it every time you see it.
It’s not that I think the guy necessarily has it right; it’s that I think he was demonized for summarizing research that actually existed and drawing conclusions from that research, which is what people do. If he got it wrong, then he got it wrong, but I was deeply troubled by, and remain deeply troubled by, the way he was treated in response.
khb on 28 Jul 2008 at 9:34 am #
Actually, most of what Summers says about discrimination is about how it doesn’t happen, not how it does. So he’s definitely presenting it as a lesser factor than the others.
Also, he has his facts wrong. He talks about unconscious discrimination stemming from people’s desire to favor and surround themselves with those who look like themselves. If that were true, then men would be biased in favor of men, women would be biased in favor of women, each ethnic group would be biased in favor of themselves, and so on. It sounds so harmless and neutral. But it’s not what happens. Instead, in subjective evaluations of a piece of scholarship with a male or female name attached, both men and women show bias in favor of men.
He says that bias can’t be that widespread of a problem, because if it were, a university could decide not to be biased, hire all the “high quality” women getting shut out by every place else, and beat the pants off of all the other universities. Setting aside whether it’s even possible for an institution to eliminate all bias by fiat (which, since people who are biased don’t usually realize that they’re biased, it’s probably not), the conclusion rests on the assumption I mentioned earlier, that someone’s performance in an academic setting depends only on her own innate ability, or “quality,” which could be objectively measured if only we knew how. It ignores bias on the part of journal editors, conference organizers, funding committees, colleagues, and students, all of whom are likely to judge a woman scientist’s work as just a little bit worse than it actually is, which means she’ll have a much harder road to travel if she’s to achieve the same level of greatness as a man of the same “quality.”
Linda on 28 Jul 2008 at 9:42 am #
Okay. Clearly, your mind is made up, and we disagree, so we can certainly leave it there. I certainly hope that in the context of the rest of the entire post, in which I explained that I have a long history investing in the strong education of girls, you understand that I am not the enemy simply because I objected to those remarks less than you did.
Green on 28 Jul 2008 at 8:27 pm #
So I guess I’ll throw my $0.02 in too, although let me start with my qualifiers: this is just what I think based on my experience, I may be wrong.
I’m a female engineering graduate student at an Ivy League university. I like Summers’ speech and agree with much of it.
I think Summers’ speech is perfectly fine, scientifically speaking. He observed something in nature, did some reading, had some theories, and presented them to a forum of his peers. He didn’t publish these findings in a journal, and even goes on to state (and this might be my favorite part of the speech,) “They may be all wrong. I will have served my purpose if I have provoked thought on this question and provoked the marshalling of evidence to contradict what I have said.” I mean, he sounds like a woman with all those qualifiers! And I think it’s great. I for one would love to see of this stuff nailed down, to understand what made me the confident, sarcastic, analytical woman that I am.
My educational experience may not be normal. I went through K-8 as one of a trio of girls who ruled the class. The boys didn’t stand at chance against us in every subject. I attended an all-girls high school, which put me at a slight disadvantage as it didn’t offer the harder math and science classes, but at least I had class time to figure out who I was academically without dealing with the wacko social boy stuff. And in my time in both undergrad and grad school, I have never once encountered sexism. I have never thought that a professor or an advisor has thought of me as a girl before thinking of me as a student. I have even cried in front of them, and I don’t think it made them consider me as weaker, or my lab work as less rigorous. I think it’s been a combination of being lucky to find that the people around me are cool, and working hard and making the right decisions about where to go and how to present myself.
So I think I was set to be successful in what I do from a young age, and for that reason I’m all for making sure that young girls feel encouraged to pursue math and science if they like it. But I’m also not convinced that biology doesn’t have something to do with it, and I’m worried that there might be a bit of a danger of lowering the bar and making things easier for everyone so more people (girls, minorities, etc) will stick with it longer. I know this is probably the most controversial feeling I have about the whole issue, but I want it to still be tough. I’ve been given many opportunities (and a lot of fellowship money) because I’m female and funding organizations and universities are trying to appear more diverse. I want to feel like I earned those because I’m a good engineer, not because I’m a girl.
Also, I think what he says about the high-powered job hypothesis is dead-on, again only based on personal experience. I’m good at what I do, and I’ve recently decided to pursue a career in academia when (if?) I finish my degree. The main deterrent has been thinking about the tenure process and the pressure. I’m 27 years old and single, what if I meet someone and want to start settling down, buying a house, and starting a family? The tenure process is intense, and will have to be a high priority for the first five years of my faculty job. Having babies will complicate things, even considering that maternity leave pushes back the process a bit and gives me more time. The guys in my department do NOT think like this. I’ve decided that it’s worth it for me anyway, but I understand completely those women who decide that it’s not for them, and why it seems more women make that decision than men.
Anyway, I think the point is that we don’t know what’s going on with it, but at least the discussion is valuable and will encourage further research. I think the vehement backlash at his comments is dangerous, because it will make other scientists (men and women) nervous to present other theories if they’re not in line with what’s politically correct.
Kimber on 28 Jul 2008 at 9:45 pm #
Kind of late into this, but I really enjoyed reading about your all-girl mock trial team. I did a little of that in high school, but debate was my main activity. When we were juniors, four of us – all girls – qualified for nationals… first time a section had been all girls in Minnesota state history. Our senior year, my partner and I were the first two-girl team to ever win. To put this in perspective, at the time, the Minnesota State Debate Championship was in its 88th year. Currently, it is in its 108th year and we’re still the only two.
That said, I’m proud to say that no one – no one who coached us, no one who judged us ever made us feel like we were less because we were girls (both of our coaches were men). We were good at what we did and treated as tough competitors. We had many guys who would walk into a room, see it was us and know that they were about to get beaten up on. But they didn’t make us feel less female and didn’t resent us for our gender – only for pounding on them!
I wish that I could say that translated into the real world of business… I don’t think that there’s any woman that doesn’t share this experience – no matter what your position, if you’re the girl, you’re the one that is expected to take the meeting notes or order lunch.
Julie on 29 Jul 2008 at 10:51 am #
“I don’t think that there’s any woman that doesn’t share this experience – no matter what your position, if you’re the girl, you’re the one that is expected to take the meeting notes or order lunch.”
I’m happy to say that that has *not* been my experience. I’m an attorney at a large law firm, and it has always been my experience that the most junior person at the meeting takes notes, and if there is a male and female associate who are equally junior, I have not observed a pattern (and I have certainly looked for it) that the female is more likely to be asked to take notes.
I’m sure many, many people have experienced what you described, of course. I would not have bothered with my anecdote if not for the “I don’t think that there’s any woman that doesn’t…” intro. I just couldn’t leave that sitting out there.
Monkeywhere on 29 Jul 2008 at 12:45 pm #
To flip the conversation, I’ll add that in the college writing courses I teach about 2/3 of the boys believe they can’t write well and hate to read. This frequently turns out not to be true (they are often surprised to learn that they love reading, for example), but somewhere they’ve been taught that reading and writing are “girl skills.” In the cases where boys have bought into the myth that they can’t write, they usually flounder a bit in college, where writing is becoming more and more important. For example, even in our math classes, many of our professors require students to write a paragraph in response to each math problem.
I’ll also add that I frequently teach some or all of David Sadker’s Failing at Fairness, in which he outlines how teachers unknowingly exhibit gender bias in their classrooms. This book is a bit dated, but it followed and developed the groundbreaking AAUW study that started this conversation and the many conversations that came after it, including Summers’s. In fact, Sadker details the precise types of behavior Linda is talking about. (It’s my understanding that Sadker is currently updating the book now that teachers have been working to address this inequality for a decade.)
As a teacher of writing and an amateur researcher of gender bias, I’ve come to believe that this subject is more complicated than I originally suspected. I used to think that only the girls were getting a raw deal in schools. Now I think we’re shortchanging all of our students in one way or another. Certainly a host of differences–genetic, biological, cultural, social, and learned–come together to create the reasons why boys and girls *appear* to have different strengths. And just when I think I’ve figured out how to correct for it in my teaching, some new experience or bit of scholarship will twist me around again.
Thanks for writing about it, Linda. It’s wonderful to know that so many people are still thinking about these kinds of topics. I began to fear that the babies of celebrities are all that matter.
Doug on 29 Jul 2008 at 3:28 pm #
Linda, you may be interested in the article linked to here:
http://www.city-journal.org/2008/eon0728hm.html
It presents the same study findings in a slightly but meaningfully different light.
Linda on 01 Aug 2008 at 1:40 pm #
Sure. That’s Heather MacDonald, and that’s her shtick. She’s got a real point buried under there, and it’s a point other people have made as well. Some of them have even managed to do iw without the tiresome “feminists are evil and wrong and the New York Times is trying to destroy America” stuff.
HW on 09 Aug 2008 at 10:29 am #
“I think he was demonized for summarizing research that actually existed and drawing conclusions from that research, which is what people do.”
No, he went far beyond ’summarizing’ and ‘drawing conclusions’; he went deep into stretching, twisting, or misrepresenting a tiny fraction of the research. His presentation was not scientific; it was a biased personal opinion, full of logical fallacies, presented in a cloak of academia by virtue of his professional position.
I take issue not only because his comments were sexist, but because they showed a real lack of scholarly thought, not to mention a clumsy, cherry-picking hand.
I am a currently dissertating in engineering at a top research university. I have a background in mathematics. I have worked in places where I was the first and only woman to work there. I am married. I am a mother of a young child. He was very much talking about me and my future. I think it can be difficult to understand how ridiculous some of his statements were if you haven’t lived it, or if you haven’t sat in on a number of similar seminars that managed to raise very provocative questions and challenge all sorts of assumptions in less ridiculous, more rigorous ways.
I find it especially irksome that he offers an incredibly weak excuse, (paraphrasing) “Well, you know, I could be totally wrong.” (Oh, OK then, I guess I won’t get totally annoyed.) That might be fine if you’re a grad student with little authority, holding forth on your own pet theory among colleagues. It is not fine in his position of authority, speaking on such an important topic over which he actually has a certain amount of direct control.